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 Post subject: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:06 pm
Posts: 344
Good glove discussion has been a little light lately, ESP golden age stuff :)
So, heres a question that I havent seen discussed here but only acknowledged....
When Bob spoke about production sliding over seas and away from the USA, he mentioned there was a year or two where retail were coming from both places.
As a 6HF collector, I've picked up any different version I could find. Recently, I was able to pick up another 3 dot from 98. The leather is awesome, but there is quite a drastic difference when compared to my 6hfd which is also a 3 dot. Obviously, if I just compared it to the 93 there could be many differences in 5 years.
Bottom line is its just void of the bowl shape. The heel is MUCH thinner and has a horse shoe shape rather than being almost squared off. The web is much bigger/thicker and as it doesnt have a bowl shape, it plays longer and no where near as wide. Its like a totally different pattern. (kinda reminds me of the single post version of the DMS rv23b). Did Bob ever mention why these early ones were SSOO different from their USA counterparts? The Leather seems very similar on both and is great. I'm sure most of you have had a 1000htl or something from this 98-99 period. Great pieces, I just dont know why there is SUCH a difference. Were totally new dye (dies?) made and used? Did they send some over? did the process of building the gloves change? If so, why would they have wanted them to be so different? The end result is probably a more updated make BUT it seems the change would have been rather jarring at the time. Was that desired 'bowl' shape a result of the patterns, or where did it even come from????
I've posted these before in the collection topics, but just for reference- here are a few pics...
This is the comparison of both 3 dots..
[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160615_191152_zpswpcrpvdx.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]
This is the 98 phily and 93 usa....
[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160615_152836_zpsl4aggxg2.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]
And finally, just a comparison to show most looked similar no matter the year UNTIL the change..
[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160615_190759_zpsbfww1n68.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]


Thanks for the thoughts...


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:56 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:29 am
Posts: 17
I don't have much to offer other than to share your lament of the loss of the bowl shape.


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 963
Bob had mentioned to me at one point that the 6HF was re-designed somewhere along the line. I'd struggle to guess when it was, but potentially during the 'transition' years (early 2000's). This was quite a while ago, so I'm struggling to remember, but I seem to remember him commenting that you can see which dye was used by counting the number of lace loops in the palm just above the heel. The Morton 6HF's, for instance, will have three close together at the pinky side, then 3 more spaced apart (one above the aw in rawlings, one just outside the R, then one more above that). The original 6HF had 3 near the pinky, then one above the aw and one adjacent to the R. Hopefully you understand that description. Can you see any difference in your 6HFs?


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:25 pm 
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As far as what actually forces the bowl shape? I'm not sure exactly. But I know that there was a lot of discussion (20?) years ago where a number of dyes changed a bit to meet MLBer's preferences. So there really is a difference in the dyes. This was true, for instance, for the PRO1000 and the PRO12TC.


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:06 pm
Posts: 344
Wow, thats awesome info!
Each one seems to have the grommits in slightly different positions, save for the pro preferred version. The number differs on a couple by one as well. The 98 Phily SEEMS like a totally different dye, while the usa 98 (although different than the 93) is mych closer an inline with the "classic size". Your second answer is what i was curious about as if i used a made in the usa classic style in 97 and then in the spring of 98 i was handed the non usa model id be pretty confused as to what happened to my pattern lol. It is worth noting however, the DMS remake for whatever reason is actually again different and larger and beefier than any of these. . Your 'redo' theroy does make sense however in that thennon usa 98 has a totally different web, shape, and honestly feel than the traditional 6hf. The dms version feels more in line with the classic usa one, but again for whatever reason... its a beast and feels closer to 12.25/12.5 and could be bowled. This other 98 just isnt cut that way and accordingly plays more like a ling straight funnel imo...


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:37 am 
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So, for the sake and further comparison... in case any one is interested as it hasn't really been broken down before with ANY pattern... here is a look at the comparison of the evolution of the 6hf pattern starting with a 1993 blackhorse. I could pick other years of pics from gloves I dont own- but since I just want to keep this about what i've felt myself, here it is....

This is probably the most durastic difference. A 1993 6hf compared to a 2000 6hf. It's worth noting that BOTH are made in the use. Also, fwiw- both are auto gloves. The 93 is from the Ripken auto series but I dont believe the 6hf's were specifically made for the autos. Conversely, the 2000 is probably from the Upper Deck A-rod auto series (with the q and '.' rather than the G) and Rawlings may have been commissioned by UD to make these gloves for the auto session. Although it could be gamed and is of no less quality (maybe even feels the nicest of the bunch) it may explain why a 5 dot is made in the USA. I'd read Bob mention sometimes they were specially made for autos.
[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160617_110256_zpsfo728iiq.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]

The 93 is on top, and has quite literally a square heel. The bottom 2000 is the same width, but the right side of the square has been chopped off. At least its not as wide. Also to note, the lace holes are in the same place, but the 2000 has 2 additional grommits.

Next is what I would consider to be the most jarring comparison. Oddly enough, they are both 1998's. The USA is a 6HFD, which the Phily one is just a 6HF.
The HFD is more in the traditional cut of the 93, with a squared off heel but with less of a chunk missing than the 2000 above. The web is identical to the 93 and 2000. The Phily employs a MUCH thicker web, similar to the DMS remake. The heel on this one though is very much like a horse show and rounded rather than flat and squared. It also has 3 less grommits than the 6hfd. Totally different shape, and this may be thirdbase24's mention of the pattern being reworked!

[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160617_110210_zpspwympqaz.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:45 am 
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Posts: 344
Just to be inclusive, here is the PP version (bottom) PROS6HF and the DMS remake. There always seems to be a difference IMO, when you take a HOH and make a PP. The PP although big, is tolerable. The DMS horween version is a tank. Huge, and totally different play. Its like the started all over and came up wioth something that LOOKS like the old one, but the similarities besides that and the 6HF stamp end there....

[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160617_112939_zpsq8k89tfw.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]


Lastly, the 98 Phily may have a bit of bowl in it yet. After some weighted ball couch catch, and forming, it took a bowl shape. It does not want to naturally however and I wont keep up with it. I'll just continue breaking it in and let the break and form fall how it goes. It kinda seems like the equivalent of trying to flair and SPT from 95... just not meant to be :)

[url][URL=http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/andrewhasseler/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160617_110341_zpsu1qo8kjj.jpg.html]Image[/url][/url]

I get this isnt everyones cup of tea, and most will probably consider it redundant. I broke this down as like the cmhcb (which I have many version of as well) I'm not just interested in the 6HFs evolution, but the gloves and patterns as a whole during my favorite Rawlings era 92-02. Lots of cool changes, combos, labels, and just so much odd stuff in general. Gloves were being made in mass qtys in 2 places at one and the result was little consistency.
I find it fascinating and THAT is why I took the time to break it down and share. Just incase someone else finds it as interesting as i do!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:50 pm
Posts: 186
This is some interesting read. Especially there is no where I can find those info unless I collect those models. even the die hard collector will find your store interesting. Thanks BigMac. I just started with the PRO1000H and find to be quit similar with most variance. Philly or Domestic, Horween or Gutmann. they all have palm crease, they all play like a 12.00 instead of 12.25. And thats why I find your collection interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Bowled USA's
Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:21 am
Posts: 989
Location: chandler AZ
great post, you are the PRO-6HF officianado ;)


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